de mortuis - Livre d'Or








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livredor
de mortuis
Thursday, 28 February 2008 at 08:57 pm
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Some very right wing American political thinker died recently; frankly I hadn't heard of him until his death, but he sounds like he was an absolute piece of work. Of course, this has reignited the usual debate about whether it's acceptable to say that someone who recently died was a disgusting racist. I started a comment to that Making Light thread, but in the end decided that it was too long and rambly and not really on topic (given that I barely know who Buckley was anyway), so it is better as a separate post than a comment on someone else's blog.

I think there is some value in the principle of de mortuis nil nisi bonum. It's mainly a principle of etiquette, though; in personal relations, if your friend is grieving over a loved one, it's absolutely the wrong moment to enumerate all the reasons why you didn't like the deceased. I think most people who have any manners at all realize this! The question is, should the principle be applied to people writing articles and blog posts about the deaths of public figures, particularly those who were basically famous for being exceptionally evil.

I believe in trying to see the best in everyone. This is a moral principle which can be controversial, but I do believe that each human being has their own unique value. I try to avoid speaking lashon hara, ill speech, about anyone. But that applies even more when a person is alive (and might be hurt by what I say about them) than after their death, so it's not specific to this situation. It is somewhat relevant in how I will decide to comment on the death of a notorious public figure, though.

A more important principle than politeness or even than purity of speech is the principle of historical truth. If a person did terrible things, the fact of their death (which of course will happen sooner or later) should never be used as an excuse to whitewash history or effectively erase the memory of their victims. One should be suspicious of those who try to use de mortuis as an excuse to defend an abuser and exploiter. Stating that Buckley was a disgusting racist is not equivalent to interrupting his funeral to harrangue his grieving family, and rhetoric that tries to equate the two is probably serving a nasty agenda.

However, I don't think it's appropriate to gloat over a death either. Some people love to talk about dancing or pissing on someone's grave, or take pleasure in the pain that they suffered at the end, or even hope they suffer eternal torment. Even if you were personally hurt by someone's actions, that's not a noble way to behave. Obviously, asking for moderation from direct victims is hard, just as asking them to see the humanity of someone who has directly hurt them while their abuser is alive is hard, so there ought to be some compassionate leeway. But for bystanders, I think that taking this kind of joy in someone else's suffering and death morally diminishes the person doing the rejoicing, and doesn't actually do any good in terms of helping the deceased's victims, or even punishing the dead person; they're dead, they don't care.

There's also a logical, even a theological problem with this attitude. Everybody dies eventually; we are not in a position to award immortality to the most deserving. How does it help if the occasional person dies who is really evil enough that we feel comfortable stating that they "deserved" the worst possible fate? You can't treat death as a punishment if it happens to everybody, absolutely without regard to moral standing. Since we all have to die, most people hope to reach a good old age in security and among loved ones, and then to die swiftly without too much suffering. That's about the best outcome you can get, so it's very odd when it suddenly becomes a source of glee if it happens to an evil person. When my neighbour died the other week, I was tempted to find it comforting that she was 82, in very good health up to the last few months, happy, active and so on; she was a good person, and she deserved the very best life available in this imperfect world. But realistically that's just coincidence; Buckley, who spent his life spreading racist and harmful ideas and oppressing those less fortunate, also died at the age of 82 after a successful and (to him, presumably) satisfying life. And all those of my neighbour's peers and family who were brutally murdered by the Nazis before they even reached adulthood were surely far less evil than Buckley. It's a travesty to look for justice in that sort of direction.

I am certainly not saying that everybody should hypocritically pretend to weep and wail over the deaths of hateful people. I have seen journal posts by people whose abusive parents finally died, and of course, being human, they felt relief rather than sadness. Anybody who expects otherwise is badly lacking in empathy. But there's a difference between acknowledging the death of an evil person and the improvement in the average moral standard of the world for not having them in it, and actively gloating and celebrating a death. And I don't understand the justification which says that this person was evil, they gloated over others' deaths during their lifetime, so it's only fair to do the same to them. That doesn't make sense; if gloating over death is a wrong thing to do, which I agree it is, then it's just as wrong to do so in revenge. (Presumably the evil person celebrated the deaths of those they considered to be morally bad in their turn!)

Pain is bad. Mortality is bad. The fact that sometimes they affect despicable people doesn't really improve things very much, in my opinion. And part of the definition of not being evil is that you don't take pleasure in someone else's misery; using the excuse of their past bad behaviour to indulge in fantasizing about such things is morally dangerous.


Whereaboooots: Älvsjö, Stockholm, Sweden
Moooood: pensivepensive
Tuuuuune: Indigo Girls: History of us
Discussion: 7 contributions | Contribute something
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vectorious: default
From:vectorious
Date:February 28th, 2008 11:19 pm (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry
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I think Mitch Benn nailed it when he said (sang) last week he was a git, now he's a dead git and nothing else has changed...
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ewx: default
From:ewx
Date:February 29th, 2008 12:13 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 01:13 am (ewx's time)
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Plenty of people will say (for instance) “Suharto gets away with it” when the seriously evil die without having been brought to justice.

Most people aren't that evil, of course, so we shouldn't necessarily expect to be able to come up with general principles that tell us how to behave when mass murderers die.

de mortuis seems a reasonable principle at a funeral but in an obituary or just in general public comment I don't think it can or should be applied.

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hairyears: default
From:hairyears
Date:February 29th, 2008 12:50 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 01:50 am (hairyears's time)
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I had heard of him. The damage he had done to America will never be made good again, and it is a measure of how deep it was - and is - that others are so eager to continue with his life's repellent work.
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kathrid: default
From:kathrid
Date:February 29th, 2008 09:52 am (UTC)
12 hours after journal entry
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I'm not entirely convinced that mortality is bad. In fact, I tend to be of the opinion that society's apparent desire for immortality is causing significantly more problems than mortality ever has. For interesting views in fiction I recommend The Sandman by Niel Gaiman (starting in The Dolls House, look for Hob Gadling), and Misspent Youth by Peter F. Hamilton.

As far as the emotion of death goes, I think it's ok to be glad that some one is dead, if their actions have been bad enough. Gloating over anything shows a lack of nobility of spirit, though.
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lavendersparkle: Rat
From:lavendersparkle
Date:February 29th, 2008 01:50 pm (UTC)
16 hours after journal entry, 02:50 pm (lavendersparkle's time)
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I think the best approach is to acknowledge that someone who was made in the image of G@d has died. This is always sad, but we can also be thankful that the evil they were perpetrating can no longer be perpetrated by them.
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pir_anha: default
From:pir_anha
Date:March 1st, 2008 01:15 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, February 29th, 2008 06:15 pm (pir_anha's time)

tired of the eulogies

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i'd never gloat at somebody's funeral (i'd not go). i'd never harangue their family at their grave (no matter how despicable they were). that's not just about manners -- they are not that person, and i try not to be cruel.

i don't want anyone to suffer, not even those who "deserve" it. i don't wish a long, drawn-out, or horrifically painful death on anyone. i'd be fine if bush's death is instantaneous. contrary to him, i don't think torture does anything good. not to force the truth out of somebody, nor as revenge.

it's not about revenge. i don't care about revenge, or tit-for-tat, or justice (there is no true justice in this world), or punishment (i don't see mortality as punishment). it's about relief. gone, gone, the witch is gone. and i dance (not actually, but i hum a joyful little melody in my head). if there is a ghod who thinks i am wrong, zie can chastise me about it right after instituting some actual justice in this world and clarifying it to the warmongers who killed thousands upon thousands of innocents, and those who actively supported them in doing so.

i don't believe gloating over the death of "evil" people is the wrong thing to do (obviously). why would it be wrong? it actively harms noone. the relief makes ME feel good; one less a*hole in the world who says despicable things and actively works to hurt people i care about.

luckily i never aspired to nobility of spirit. :) and mortality isn't "bad". everything dies, and we're all star stuff. where it gets morally dangerous IMO is if i were to make plans to hasten mortality for somebody else because i consider them "evil". and i don't even fantasize about that.

i ponder sometimes what i would do if i had the opportunity, by refusing to save one of those people in an emergency, for example. i am not sure. i am so primed to help that i might even try to save an "evil" person. which might well be a moral failing. i hope i never have to decide this in reality.
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cartesiandaemon: default
From:cartesiandaemon
Date:March 19th, 2008 03:55 am (UTC)
19 days after journal entry
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Yes.

I'd hoped that if I waited a while I'd have something more to add than "Yes, I agree, what very good points and arguments!" but apparently not, no, I still agree exactly.
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