Mild Rant: daft crush meme - Livre d'Or








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livredor
Mild Rant: daft crush meme
Wednesday, 11 August 2004 at 02:01 pm
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A while ago, rysmiel said: If there's a meme you're sick to death of going around your friends-list, post this exact sentence in your LiveJournal.
And I've been waiting for an opportunity to pass this on, because I love the meta-memage, but I'm too literal to post it unless it actually applies. But the 'crush' meme (you know the one I mean; I'm not doing them the favour of linking) is the perfect excuse.

The security aspect is completely blah as far as I'm concerned. Yes, they may be trying to steal your password and / or sell your information. No, they have no means of verifying that the person who signed up is who they say they are. None of these things is a cause for hysteria as far as I'm concerned. If you think someone might misuse information, well, don't give them the information, then. Duh.

But even assuming the meme is completely honest, it's annoying. How about we behave like adults and tell people if we fancy them, while being prepared to handle it if our feelings are not reciprocated? Is that so hard to grasp? How about we don't engage in stupid contests to see who's the most fanciable, or stupid primary school style giggling and insinuation about people being attracted to eachother?

If you want to know, I am attracted to precisely two people on my friends list, and they both know how I feel. One of them is lethargic_man, my boyfriend of two years standing (I mean, can you even handle the excitement?) and the other knows exactly why nothing is going to happen between us, the existing commitment being one major reason. There are also two of my exes here; they haven't got any less attractive since we split up, but they are definitely not in the potential partners category. Also not exactly world-shaking news.

Then there are lots of people I consider in principle attractive but whom I'm not interested in personally. And a largely overlapping set of people that I could potentially be attracted to in the right circumstances and if they expressed interest in me. There is absolutely no-one who would offend me by being attracted to me, and there is absolutely no-one (apart from the aforementioned boyfriend) I would be in the least interested in pursuing any kind of sexual interaction with.

Since we are all sensible adults, we can make better uses of our time and energy than behaving like idiots who would be despicable to a class of twelve-year-olds. For example, we could be reading and thinking about greengolux's really interesting post about the intersection between sex, friendship and love and the way they are perceived in society and how slash fiction plays into the equation. Now that's the kind of thing that I'm happy to see on my friends page!


Moooood: bitchybitchy
Tuuuuune: Massive Attack: Angel
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 11th, 2004 06:36 am (UTC)
3 minutes after journal entry, 09:36 am (khalidz0r's time)
(Link)
Umm, sorry but I really am not into memes; however, talking about it made me curious about what this meme does. So can you give me the link? Thanks :P~
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livredor: default
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 06:41 am (UTC)
9 minutes after journal entry, 07:41 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
Heh. It's one of those 'list all the people you have a crush on and if they like you back we'll tell you' kind of ideas. Pretty much guaranteed to cause maximum drama and annoyance. And check out the complete lack of any reasonable security on their site: http://www.ljmeme.com

You obviously have good taste in friends if it's not cropped up on your flist yet.
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 11th, 2004 06:51 am (UTC)
19 minutes after journal entry, 09:51 am (khalidz0r's time)
(Link)
Haha, I am not going to put my LJ password there.

Indeed, I think I have pretty good friends :) I have never seen this meme before; I'm sure some of my friends must have posted it, but I don't really look at meme posts with any attention so it doesn't matter.

Afterall, I don't currently have any crushes on anyone in LJ :P I may even have no crushes at all in my life, except if we're going to count the girls upstairs; this is not a crush, though, because I don't really know them; I just see them around.
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mair_aw: default
From:mair_aw
Date:August 11th, 2004 12:05 pm (UTC)
5 hours after journal entry
(Link)
random comment, I signed up to it, and I didn't put my *LJ* password there, just an arbitrary one I chose...
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livredor: default
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 12:33 pm (UTC)
6 hours after journal entry, 01:33 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
Hello, random person. Welcome to my corner of LJ.

I didn't put my *LJ* password there
Well, that's because you're sensible. If the meme is password fishing, it's only going to catch people who are more than usually foolish about security. I should think there are probably at least a proportion of people who would see an instruction to sign up with their username and would provide their LJ password out of habit or cluelessness.
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:45 pm (UTC)
16 hours after journal entry, August 12th, 2004 01:45 am (khalidz0r's time)
(Link)
Alright, my mistake then :)
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 11:06 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 12:06 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
I may even have no crushes at all in my life
Well, this is not necessarily a bad state to be in.
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lethargic_man: reflect
From:lethargic_man
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:43 am (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry, 08:43 am (lethargic_man's time)

Memology

(Link)
Now you've triggered a pet peeve of mine, which is how these LJ things are subverting the word "meme". It's bad enough people giving simplistic definitions of "meme" in books which limit their sense to overtly manipulatory ones; but giving people who have never previously heard the word the idea that this is what the meme "meme" is all about... memome knows what Richard Dawkins would think of that. *growl*
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pseudomonas: stylised
From:pseudomonas
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:44 am (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry, 08:44 am (pseudomonas's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
If it annoys Richard Dawkins it can't be all that bad.
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lethargic_man: default
From:lethargic_man
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:58 am (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry, 08:58 am (lethargic_man's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
*meow*
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 11th, 2004 09:42 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 12:42 pm (khalidz0r's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Honestly, I do not know what a meme really is. I think it's something that people share with each other, but I am not sure of its exact definition.

At any rate, the only way I have seen and used this word is to do with those things people share in their journals, which are generally quite superfecial.
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livredor: p53
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 09:54 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 10:54 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
It's an idea which spreads in a manner somewhat analogous to genetic inheritance. They can 'mutate' as they are transmitted between people, and some form of 'natural selection' operates on them. 'Successful' memes are those which are adopted by a bigger proportion of the population, like evolutionarily successful genes which lead to more offspring and thus become more widespread. But like genes, they are not necessarily immediately beneficial to the people who carry them.

Pretty much any idea can be regarded as a meme, in a way, but it's usually illustrated with very clear examples. You could consider the taboo on incest a meme; you will probably find that most people find the idea of sex with their own parents or siblings disgusting, a concept which they pick up from their social environment. It is hypothesized that this meme is successful because it encourages genetic diversity and people who have this meme are thus more likely to have healthy offspring.

A 'meme' in the LJ sense is something that one person posts, and then all their friends copy their post because they think it's cool. So you can see the meme spreading through the population, and it's a very clear illustration of the principle of how memes work. Most ideas are quite abstract things, and the successful ones are often so entrenched in people's minds that they don't even realize they are ideas, they just think they are fundamental truths. So it wouldn't be so easy to observe how they spread, unless you are a professional sociologist.
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:47 pm (UTC)
16 hours after journal entry, August 12th, 2004 01:47 am (khalidz0r's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
I can very well see you're a biology expert there :P You explain words in terms of biology! :P~
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livredor: p53
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:31 am (UTC)
21 hours after journal entry, 05:31 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Well, it's true that I'm a biologist, and I do generally relate things to biology. (I once got pseudomonas, also a biologist, to explain London public transport to me by analogy with metabolic pathways. This led to me getting a a lot less lost in London than previously.) But the point that you're missing is that the guy who originally coined the word meme, Richard Dawkins, is also a biologist, and indeed he invented the word in order to talk about a biological effect (albeit one that is mainly relevant to human biology, rather than animals in general).
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From:khalidz0r
Date:August 15th, 2004 09:45 am (UTC)
4 days after journal entry, 12:45 pm (khalidz0r's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Alright, I give up :-) I'll not add any comment that would also end up being a mistake ;)

P.S. Yeah, that comment was supposed to be here. I commented on the wrong place :P~
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:00 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 11:00 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
You're very funny with this linguistic purity thing you have. Words can have more than one association, even more than one meaning, depending on context. That's just the way language works, it's not a matter of subverting the original meaning of the word! It's true that meme does have a well defined and well documented original meaning in the way that most words don't, but I don't think that changes the basic argument.

I like memeone knows as a phrase, though. And I do agree with pseudomonas that annoying Richard Dawkins is rather a good thing than otherwise.
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lethargic_man: default
From:lethargic_man
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:30 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 11:30 am (lethargic_man's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
I like memeone knows as a phrase

That's not what I said. ;^b
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livredor: default
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:38 am (UTC)
4 hours after journal entry, 11:38 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Gosh, so you didn't. I should learn to read more carefully. What one earth were you talking about, then?
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lethargic_man: default
From:lethargic_man
Date:August 11th, 2004 11:14 am (UTC)
4 hours after journal entry, 12:14 pm (lethargic_man's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Memome is to meme as genome is to gene. It's the domain space of potential human knowledge. I have no idea if this word exists (which didn't stop me using it in "Transhuman Pyramid", but that's not set today so hey).
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livredor: letters (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:32 am (UTC)
21 hours after journal entry, 05:32 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
Memome is to meme as genome is to gene. It's the domain space of potential human knowledge.
Not convinced by that as a coinage. But either way, I don't think 'potential human knowledge' can be said to know things. Anyway.
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ewx: default
From:ewx
Date:August 11th, 2004 04:32 pm (UTC)
10 hours after journal entry, 05:32 pm (ewx's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
taimatsu suggested referring to all (or at least the majority of) the things that are referred to as "memes" on livejournal as "lemmings" (alluding to the way in which everyone follows after them). It seems to have caught on among some people.
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livredor: teapot
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:33 am (UTC)
22 hours after journal entry, 05:33 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
lemmings is a nice word, and I'd seen it around my friends page but didn't know the origin. Thank you.
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rysmiel: default
From:rysmiel
Date:August 12th, 2004 06:31 am (UTC)
23 hours after journal entry, 02:31 am (rysmiel's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
If you are going to be a linguistic Puritan, shouldn't it be "memetics" ?
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livredor: letters (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 06:58 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 07:58 am (livredor's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
If you are going to be a linguistic Puritan
I think Puritan is a little unfair; merely a purist, I think.

shouldn't it be "memetics" ?
Yes, I've always thought that the adjective from meme should be memetic, except for the fact that it sounds way too similar to mimetic. It maybe that this is not as much of a problem as I'm making it, but hey.
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lethargic_man: default
From:lethargic_man
Date:August 12th, 2004 10:10 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 11:10 am (lethargic_man's time)

Re: Memology

(Link)
But I was referring to what "meme" means, not the study of memes.
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From:loreid
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:25 am (UTC)
53 minutes after journal entry
(Link)
I totally agree with you - which is more or less why I deleted mine. It's so easy to get sucked into these things when you're bored...
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:28 am (UTC)
55 minutes after journal entry, 08:28 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
Or not even bored, just compulsive clicky syndrome! I certainly wasn't aiming this rant at you (or any particular individual). Just annoyed at the meme and the mindset it represents in general.
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From:loreid
Date:August 11th, 2004 07:45 am (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry
(Link)
It's insidious, too. The mindset I mean. I have 4 crushes, none of them are mutual so I really shouldn't give a damn... but I do! I wanna know! *mentally reverts to teenager*
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livredor: ewe
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:34 am (UTC)
22 hours after journal entry, 05:34 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
I have 4 crushes, none of them are mutual [...] I wanna know!
But if you know know they are not not mutual, then you already do know? Confused here.
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From:loreid
Date:August 12th, 2004 07:24 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry
(Link)
I have 4 crushes, none of them are mutual [...] I wanna know!
Rephrase: four people have crushes on me, none of them are mutual, etc.
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 11:07 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 12:07 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
four people have crushes on me, none of them are mutual
Ah well. If these people have good enough taste to crush on you, hopefully they will also have good enough taste to tell you so. Sorry to misunderstand you before.
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draconid: default
From:draconid
Date:August 11th, 2004 08:49 am (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry, 09:49 am (draconid's time)
(Link)
Although I agree with you 100%, I'd just like to point out that it doesn't actually ask for your LJ password. There's a sign-up link underneath the login bit. Admittedly this isn't made all that obvious. I think I actually signed up for it once, immediately forgot the password I gave (although I do have a few "generic" passwords for such occasions so I could probably guess it) and never posted it to my journal. I guess I was curious. But then at the same time I have no crushes on anyone on my Friends List (other than the obvious), and am pretty certain no-one is likely to have a crush on me since I rarely post pictures of myself and don't get to know people enough that they might develop a crush. But yeah, I was still curious.

Actually, I hated the poll on supportlounge even more than this because I felt I really should answer it, but couldn't think who to put (other than you in the plutonic sense) and would have felt uncomfortable leaving particular people off.

Besides, I haven't had a crush on a "real person" (or indeed a virtual person) since I developed one on Rat. Now.. if someone were to ask me about crushes on movie stars....
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 09:19 am (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry, 10:19 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
Although I agree with you 100%
Yay for being agreed with!

I'd just like to point out that it doesn't actually ask for your LJ password
It doesn't, but it's a fairly common scam to hope that careless people will use either their LJ password or their email password when signing up to the system. If the intention is malicious (I have no opinions either way), they could probably harvest quite a few passwords that way.

Actually, I hated the poll on supportlounge even more than this
I see where you're coming from with that; I think it was mainly pthalogreen being silly though. And the other big difference is that I do trust Pthalo not to do anything dodgy with confidential information. Of course, not everyone in Support is obliged to trust her, but *shrug*.

you in the plutonic sense
*smile* Yeah, I put a platonic crush on you too. But at least that particular post allowed you to differentiate, and I filled it in with the firm intention that if anyone asked I'd tell them the situation anyway.

I haven't had a crush on a "real person" (or indeed a virtual person) since I developed one on Rat
Aww, bless. That's most sweet and endearing. I don't do 'crushes' a lot either; there is someone at the moment, but that's rare for me.

if someone were to ask me about crushes on movie stars....
You know, I've never had a crush on a movie star or other famous person. I just never feel like I know celebrities well enough to crush on them. Actually, there are very few movie stars I even find good looking; I really don't go for the overly glossy Hollywood 'look'. I'm planning at some point to post a list of fictional characters I've crushed on, but I need some time to think about that one.
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darcydodo: dodo
From:darcydodo
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:24 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 05:24 am (darcydodo's time)
(Link)
Ooh, I rarely get to see you in this vituperative a mood! 'Twas fun. ;)
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:39 am (UTC)
4 hours after journal entry, 11:39 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
Errr, thanks, I guess...
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midnightmelody: default
From:midnightmelody
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:32 am (UTC)
3 hours after journal entry, 11:32 am (midnightmelody's time)
(Link)
Yay! *makes livredor banner and jumps on the bandwagon*
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livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 10:41 am (UTC)
4 hours after journal entry, 11:41 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
*blush* Ooh, thank you. I feel all appreciated now. And I do like the ironical way you phrase your appreciation!
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midnightmelody: default
From:midnightmelody
Date:August 11th, 2004 12:50 pm (UTC)
6 hours after journal entry, 01:50 pm (midnightmelody's time)
(Link)
Unfortunately, my sheep-brain kicked in and insisted on loving your idea, rather than having my own. And it's about to get worse . . . mwahahaha.

This is *exactly* my favourite thing about LJ, the chance to discuss and share ideas with so many people.
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livredor: letters (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:36 am (UTC)
22 hours after journal entry, 05:36 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
This is *exactly* my favourite thing about LJ, the chance to discuss and share ideas with so many people.
Absolutely! I'm also a big LJ fan and for very similar reasons. And thanks again for the link :-)
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rysmiel: default
From:rysmiel
Date:August 11th, 2004 11:58 am (UTC)
5 hours after journal entry, 07:58 am (rysmiel's time)
(Link)
I really dislike the way this now seems to want me to post a new comment either at the bottom of everything said so far, or in a nigh-empty page, when what I want is to have the text of your original post on the same screen rather than lots of scrolling up to.

I think there are very few people I know well to whom I could not be attracted given a reciprocal spark and appropriate circumstances. [ I like to think of this as being very fond of people, in general, though I have had it painted as lack of discrimination; I really do think most people have very likable and indeed fanciable sides if you see them right. ] It is however very nice to be able to express affection among grown-ups in other modes than that, when such modes apt, as it seems implausible that that spark and circumstances will ultimately happen with everyone with whom I would welcome it. [ And besides, if that were to happen I'd never get anything done... ] I can however think of almost nothing short of a complete lack of common language that would stop me expressing such feelings. My feelings with regard to this daft crush meme are in the same direction as yours but would probably come out quite a bit less politely.
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 11th, 2004 12:30 pm (UTC)
5 hours after journal entry, 01:30 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
I really dislike the way this now seems to want me to post a new comment
http://www.livejournal.com/admin/console/ -> set disable_quickreply 1

Not a well-documented userprop, but yes, you can get rid of the fancy JavaScript comment shit. (It works per user; if you set that option you will never have to deal with the annoyingness on anyone's journal.)

I think there are very few people I know well to whom I could not be attracted given a reciprocal spark and appropriate circumstances.
Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to say. As far as I'm concerned attraction is largely a function of closeness and trust and appropriate circumstances.

It is however very nice to be able to express affection among grown-ups in other modes than that
Absolutely! That's why I'm so extremely irritated with exactly all the stuff that greengolux is complaining about in the post of hers I linked, as well as the ridiculous adolescent attitude to sexual attraction as typified by the meme.

I can however think of almost nothing short of a complete lack of common language that would stop me expressing such feelings.
If more people had that sort of sensible attitude, the world would be a much happier place.

My feelings with regard to this daft crush meme are in the same direction as yours but would probably come out quite a bit less politely.
Gosh, you think I'm being polite? I don't think this post counts as polite at all; darcydodo called it vituperative.
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rysmiel: default
From:rysmiel
Date:August 12th, 2004 06:37 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 02:37 am (rysmiel's time)
(Link)
http://www.livejournal.com/admin/console/ -> set disable_quickreply 1

Thank you very much.

I think there are very few people I know well to whom I could not be attracted given a reciprocal spark and appropriate circumstances.
Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to say. As far as I'm concerned attraction is largely a function of closeness and trust and appropriate circumstances.


I really don't get people for whom it seems to work in ways orthogonal to closeness and trust, but there are an awful lot of them out there.

It is however very nice to be able to express affection among grown-ups in other modes than that
Absolutely! That's why I'm so extremely irritated with exactly all the stuff that greengolux is complaining about in the post of hers I linked, as well as the ridiculous adolescent attitude to sexual attraction as typified by the meme.


Having read that post, I have little to say but a heartfelt amen.

I can however think of almost nothing short of a complete lack of common language that would stop me expressing such feelings.
If more people had that sort of sensible attitude, the world would be a much happier place.


Well, if I were let run the planet, that kind of attitude would see much more support in surrounding mainstream Western culture than it does now.

Gosh, you think I'm being polite? I don't think this post counts as polite at all; darcydodo called it vituperative.

Not an adjective I'd have used; you are good at doing being irritated with something in a calm and reasoned way.
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livredor: teapot
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 11:16 am (UTC)
1 days after journal entry, 12:16 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
I really don't get people for whom it seems to work in ways orthogonal to closeness and trust, but there are an awful lot of them out there.
I don't think I've ever been attracted to someone I didn't basically like and respect. But if everyone were like me than huge chunks of literature would never exist. So I'll just continue to marvel at the diversity of humankind.

If more people had that sort of sensible attitude, the world would be a much happier place.
Well, if I were let run the planet,
Hm. It's verging a little towards the disturbingly megalomaniac that you've jumped straight from there being more people like you around to you running the entire planet, no? Well, I suppose I can imagine worse potential dictators than you, but still.

that kind of attitude would see much more support in surrounding mainstream Western culture than it does now.
I wonder whose interest is served by encouraging people to be really bad at communicating on this sort of level.

I did once, in a completely theoretical and abstract way, tell someone that I thought people ought to jolly well say so if they found friends attractive, and he concluded from this remark that I'd spotted his crush on me and was dropping hints for him to confess, which he promptly did. That was... odd, but definitely preferable to his agonizing over his feelings and not knowing whether to hope I'd notice or hope I wouldn't.

you are good at doing being irritated with something in a calm and reasoned way.
Thank you. I take this as quite a compliment; I'm aiming towards tolerance ultimately, but this seems a good step on the way to that goal.
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(no subject) - monanotlisa (8/11/04 02:17 pm)
livredor: teeeeeeeeea (thanks to darcydodo)
From:livredor
Date:August 12th, 2004 04:37 am (UTC)
22 hours after journal entry, 05:37 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
*bows* Why, thank you.
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