Linguistic discovery of the day - Livre d'Or








Miscellaneous. Eclectic. Random. Perhaps markedly literate, or at least suffering from the compulsion to read any text that presents itself, including cereal boxes. * Blogroll * Strange words * More links * Bookies * Microblog * Recent comments * Humans only * Second degree * By topic * Cool posts * Writing * New post

Tags

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



livredor
Linguistic discovery of the day
Monday, 12 February 2007 at 04:35 pm
Tags:

Previous Entry Next Entry


So we were discussing the matter of how people are perceived by others versus what their character is actually like. And somebody mentioned that I come across as being nicey nicey and unassertive at first, she said, I think it's because you're quite... frum. She fumbled for the word, and decided it didn't exist in English. But I got very excited as she was defining it for me because it turns out that the Swedish word frum means exactly the same as the Yiddish word, the lack of which I frequently deplore in English: religious in the sense of being committed to the rules and formal observances of the religion. Like pious but more specific. Cool, huh?


Whereaboooots: SH, Flemingsberg, Sweden
Moooood: pleasedpleased
Tuuuuune: Richard Ashcroft: A song for the lovers
Discussion: 30 contributions | Contribute something
Tags:

Previous Entry Next Entry




Contribute something
View all comments chronologically



wychwood: Fan - mask
From:wychwood
Date:February 12th, 2007 03:48 pm (UTC)
6 minutes after journal entry
(Link)
That's very cool :)

Do you feel that "frum" differs much from "observant"? Because that's what it sounds like to me, based on your definition above. *hunts nuances*
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: letters
From:livredor
Date:February 12th, 2007 04:31 pm (UTC)
50 minutes after journal entry, 04:31 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
Frum is not very different from observant, no; if you interchanged the two in any given sentence, you'd most likely end up with sentences that made sense. But it's a particular kind of observant. I think the difference is that it refers to one possible attitude towards religious rules. Someone might be observant of a really radical, bleeding-edge liberal kind of religion; they wouldn't be frum.
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) - wychwood (2/12/07 04:37 pm)
(no subject) - livredor (2/12/07 05:06 pm)
rysmiel: vacant and in pensive mood
From:rysmiel
Date:February 12th, 2007 03:54 pm (UTC)
12 minutes after journal entry, 11:54 am (rysmiel's time)
(Link)
One of these days I will have time to figure out and post about how frum feels different to pietas as a concept and why the latter feels more congenial to me.
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: words
From:livredor
Date:February 12th, 2007 04:39 pm (UTC)
58 minutes after journal entry, 04:39 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
I would find that very interesting. But you have lots of interesting things to think and talk about so of course you have to prioritize your time.

I don't think frum is necessarily meant to be congenial. It is used negatively as often as not.
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) - lethargic_man (2/12/07 06:11 pm)
(no subject) - adrian_turtle (2/13/07 01:15 am)
(no subject) - livredor (2/13/07 08:46 am)
From:lunza
Date:February 12th, 2007 04:07 pm (UTC)
25 minutes after journal entry
(Link)
In English ... or at least to Americans ... or at least to THIS American, "pious" used to describe oneself is insufferably self-aggrandizing, and used to describe someone else is a put-down implying hypocrisy somewhere along the line. Similarly you don't want to go around saying how devout you are -- it carries the taint of bragging. Frum at least doesn't have those connotations, though there is the word "frumpy," which means something like "very badly dressed," and "frump," a woman who is at the same time unfashionable, modest and sloppy.
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: letters
From:livredor
Date:February 12th, 2007 04:47 pm (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry, 04:47 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
Mm, thanks for these observations. I agree with you that pious and devout are either inappropriate boasts, or frank insults. I'm not sure whether frum is connected to frumpy in reality, but it's an interesting thought. Frum at least can be neutral or even positive, though it isn't in all cases.
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) - rysmiel (2/12/07 05:00 pm)
(no subject) - ewx (2/12/07 05:03 pm)
(no subject) - beckyzoole (2/12/07 05:50 pm)
(no subject) - curious_reader (2/12/07 05:32 pm)
(no subject) - livredor (2/13/07 08:52 am)
One non-believer's usage - redbird (2/12/07 09:24 pm)
(no subject) - livredor (2/13/07 08:49 am)
From:dsgood
Date:February 12th, 2007 05:26 pm (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry, 11:26 am (dsgood's time)
(Link)
"Frum (Yiddish: פֿרום; [frum | frim]), from the German fromm, meaning pious" -- via http://onelook.com.
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
From:curious_reader
Date:February 12th, 2007 05:34 pm (UTC)
1 hours after journal entry
(Link)
I didn't see that entry. I made a mistake with my German Orthography. I hardly use my first language since I live in the UK. Here you go. I was right.
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) - livredor (2/13/07 08:54 am)
From:lyssiae
Date:February 12th, 2007 05:53 pm (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry
(Link)
Dutch has the word vroom which is clearly (ha! Famous last words) related. I usually translate it as devout in English, which latter I usually interpret without the possible negative connotations one might get with pious.

Ahhhhh, languages :)
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: letters
From:livredor
Date:February 13th, 2007 08:57 am (UTC)
17 hours after journal entry, 08:57 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
Vroom, cool, I thought that was the word that Pratchett made up for the sound a tree makes when it's growing very very fast. I have a native Dutch speaker who is also a frum Jew hanging about here somewhere, maybe she can shed some light. But thanks for adding in another comparison!
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
ewx: default
From:ewx
Date:February 12th, 2007 06:01 pm (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry, 06:01 pm (ewx's time)
(Link)
Given that it apparently has cognates in German, Dutch and Swedish I guess the question is what happened to it in English l-)
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
hairyears: default
From:hairyears
Date:February 12th, 2007 06:27 pm (UTC)
2 hours after journal entry, 06:27 pm (hairyears's time)
(Link)
Hmmm... As an outsidr to the community, I'd always translated 'frum' as verkrampt a term of art in Afrikaans for conservatism and correctness.
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: words
From:livredor
Date:February 13th, 2007 09:02 am (UTC)
17 hours after journal entry, 09:02 am (livredor's time)
(Link)
The thing about frum is that people who are frum will use it as a compliment, but people who are not frum (or who are, but are defensive about not being frum enough), tend to use it as a (usually mild) insult. If you've mainly heard the word from people in the second group, you may have a more negative impression than you would get from a random sample. I think the same is true of conservative, mind you; people who are conservative think it's a good thing to be, but people who are not use it to imply excessively rigid, sexually repressed, authoritarian and so on.
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) - curious_reader (2/14/07 02:14 pm)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) (6/4/09 09:17 pm)
From:(Anonymous)
Date:February 15th, 2007 06:42 pm (UTC)
3 days after journal entry
(Link)
Hello,
More fun than Kant
YAB
Also frum not a=s cool as erich
(Reply to this comment) (Thread)
livredor: teeeeeeeeea
From:livredor
Date:February 15th, 2007 08:43 pm (UTC)
3 days after journal entry, 08:43 pm (livredor's time)
(Link)
Hi there bro! Glad you found my real blog; the other one is just an attempt to look serious and professional (don't laugh), but this is where all my friends hang out and where I actually talk about my life.

What are you doing for Pesach, anyway? (Answer by email or Skype if you'd prefer.)
(Reply to this comment) (Up thread) (Parent) (Thread)



Contribute something
View all comments chronologically